Are women still 'disadvantaged'?

From Paul D Charlotte, NC

As with any government program. The set asides started with good intentions, but have become rife with corruption and abuse. The concept of "leveling the laying field" by repeating the abuses of the past (only now "justified" by the benefactors of the program )leads only to a continuation of the disparities and resentments it was meant to replace. Programs such as the newly classified "Diversity Initiatives" are, again, nothing more than a tool of political restructuring. As an Anglo male, I see nothing positive about the programs that seek to overvalue someones else s contributions and merits by devaluing my own.
Too often I hear of the oft-maligned "good ol' boys club" as a common example of male dominance. This is nothing more than social cohesion and interpersonal networking. It will , and does, exist with women or minorities as well. Preferential treatment based upon your social network has always been a fact of human existence. It just seems that, for now, the Anglo guys cant have what everyone else wants.

From Raul Espinosa

Dear Lenora,

I wish to acknowledge you for an excellent article . For your information, I
am the government contractor who has been challenging the legality of the so
called 'FAR Exemptions' without success primarily due to alleged unethical
pressure from GSA and DOD. The 'FAR exemptions' have diverted, illegally,
$640 Billions in contracts from the statutory rights of small businesses
over the last decade.

I founded the Fairness in Procurement Alliance (FPA) in 2005 to fight
procurement abuse. Our successes include winning a Federal Case which
demonstrated that protests don't deliver justice; conving the Office of
Advocacy to revamp abusive regulations and conceiving – with the help of a
Think Tank at a major university – the 'umbrella initiative' which proposes
the concept of 'partnership between bureaocrats and entrepreneurs ' as THE
solution to the procurement set-aside crisis.

You can view both our challenges and our successes at our web portal,
http://www.FPAportal.org. Please contact me at 904-347-4726 to discuss this
matter further.

Thank you for making a difference,

Raul Espinosa, Founder
Fairness in Procurement Alliance (FPA)

From Leo Cotnoir, Manchester, NH

While well intentioned, the SBA set-aside program, especially the 8(a) component of it, are, in fact rife with fraud and abuse. Working for and with minority small businesses for years I saw many "owners" become wealthy while their employees fared far less well. I have seen very few of these companies actually make an effort to recruit minorities at all, let alone in positions of responsibility. And while there certainly are talented women small business owners I have seen way too many wives being made "president" of a company functionally run by their husbands. Even worse was a case I know of where retired government officials recruited a minority woman to "own" their company and qualify them for set-asides. I won't comment on whether women should still be considered a disadvanteged minority, but I will say that considering wealthy, educated (Asian) Indians to be such simply because they have dark skin is a scam. While the Adarand decision curbed some of the worst abuses of set-asides the program is still a travesty that needs serious attention.

From Anonymous

There should not be set asides. Let the market rule. What's the difference between this and that female white college student up in Michigan that placed high in scores but was denied access because of affirmative action? A lessor qualified student was given her slot because of reverse discrimination. Busing students, etc. These seem to be different examples of that old left wing social experimentation. Let it go and let people just live and it will work itself out. Free market. Freedom. Put the FREEDOM back in the system. Trust the constitution. It works.

From Zach, La Crosse, WI

I don't like the fact Walmart is credited for "supplier diversity efforts" when they probably could buy $4.2 billion from these sort of groups in 2006 on accident. This is a fraction of a fraction of Walmarts purchasing. Same is true for most agencies trying to meet socio-economic goals. The set-aside goals for WO-SB are minimal and simply in place to keep purchasers mindful of where they are distributing their agencies money not to change the world.

Elaine, Denver. There is an SBA socio-economic classification for "Emerging Small Business" you may want to look into.

From John Galt

Well this was all very enlightening. I learned that Steve in Pheonix can own a small business, but somehow know enough about the quota programs within large government contracting firms to claim my observations of reverse discrimination to be ludicrous.

I also learned that Steve believes tasteless ethnic jokes are sufficient grounds for federal laws that discriminate against white males. And…that these laws and set-asides will eventually get society further down the road to eliminating resentment.

I learned that Van and I are both in the wrong industry. She needs to work as a government contractor, and I need to work in the private sector (taking care not to work for a supplier to a gov't contractor). If only I had known this 30 years ago.

I learned that quite a few people can see logic in ending discrimination by discriminating.

I found additional confirmation that we are living well after the end of the age of reason.

More than anything, I learned that Ayn Rand was even smarter than I gave her credit.

From James, Frederick Colorado

I don't think that there should be any set asides. I think that who-ever can come in with the best bid, should get the contract, there should be no set asides in anything.

From ASBL

If you want to help comment here:

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocumentDetail&o=09000064803cf665

Sample Comment:
To whom it may concern:

I am against this proposed rule change. Stating that women owned small businesses are disadvantaged in 4 of 140 industries is an insult to women small business owners across the nation. The Small Business Administrations proposed rule is not only inconsistent with a Rand corporation study that found that women owned small businesses were underrepresented in 87 percent of industries in April of 2007, but it is also inconsistent with the congressional intent of passing P.L. 106-554 in 2000.
Thank you,

Name

E-mail

From Any auto saleswoman jean/ atl ga

I work in sales for luxury automobiles.As a female in it for 20 years, I still watch the men play golf, then get all the deals a manager can give them while I have to work so much harder to keep up with the boys club. I get in cars and can get carjacked, take the same chances, work in rain and snow and heat.I get No special treatment. I see men watching porno on the computer but if I use a swear word I am not being a lady. I have been told why don't you live off your boyfriend..why do you take a job from a man. Ask any female in our business!

From Van, Hampton Rds,Va

Any one that has worked in the engineering field or the construction industry knows very well that the good ole boys network is alive and well. Most deals about contracts or available jobs are made in the men's room, the golf course, or at lunch. When you don't have access to these little meeting places then you don't get the insider information that is needed to keep on top of things. The good ole boys don't want you to be on top of things. I work side by side with the guys and have more training,( paid for with my own money) and still I am paid way less. If the good ole boys network doesn't exist then explain why a male with 3 months experience gets 10k more and has a tenth of the education. Answer: he was friends with the owner, another white male. So experience and education and doing the same work mean nothing when you are a woman. If I was given the same push that my male coworker had, I would be a regional manager or VP.

From Steve, Phoenix, AZ

An·glo, Pronunciation Key – [ang-gloh] Pronunciation Key – noun, plural -glos, adjective
–noun 1. a white American of non-Hispanic descent, as distinguished esp. from an American of Mexican or Spanish descent.

From Bill, Denver, CO

Steve, why do you call white people "Anglos?" That is no more accurate than to call all Hispanic people "Mexicans." Almost without exception white people prefer to be called "white", not Anglo.

From Tunatofu

I support the concept of small business set-asides, helping level the playing field to give the little guys a chance. However, the reality is that often unqualified companies get business with government agencies doing work they cant handle (i.e., companies that have never made engine parts before get a contract making ship engines BECAUSE it is a small company) and for a higher price than a larger established company could do it for (i.e., their outrageous price and overstaffed proposal is LESS outrageous or overstaffed than the other small businesses). In spite of their higher costs, they often cant pay the same salaries or benefits as the larger companies and therefore cant recruit or retain the staff with the experience or expertise. Small 8(a) companies have their place but when they DONT match the qualifications, they should NOT be given the business, regardless of their status or or their costs.

From Steve, Phoenix, AZ

Simply by viewing many of the comments can one discern why small business goals are necessary. The goals are typically in the 3-5% range so we are not exactly talking about disenfranchising white male America.

The thought that white males are fast disappearing from corporate America may be the most ludicrous thing I've heard in a while. I am Hispanic and own a manufacturing company and deal with silly slights from the entire range of humanity all the time that are just part of the job. The other day I had a job applicant tell me "the burrito eaters" were taking all the good positions. He did not get the job.

Just last week I was at a reasonably exclusive political fundraiser (one of two Hispanics out of about 35 Anglos) where a white executive at our table told a joke indicating that all Mexicans know how to steal chickens.

These are minor matters but they are indicative of an attitude that will only be erased through time and success. Small business goals are a way of helping society down that road.

From Joseph Hegberg Forest Lake, MN.

Let us end discrimination by discriminating? What a joke.

From Joe Joe, Chelmsford MA

"Women are looking for a handout, a free ride. They want to be treated like a man, but don’t want to pay the price that goes with being masculine in the world. It’s an illegitimate, something for nothing attitude really, but that’s the modern day woman for you."

This is the reason why you never want to marry an American female..they are the worst!!!!!!!

From D, Boston, Ma

As a woman, I do not think they should be given special treatment based on gender. Companies that aren't as large should be getting help, regardless of the sex of the owner.

From Anonymous, Buffalo, NY

As a black woman, I think it is interesting that everytime an issue of diversity initiatives or affirmative action arises people want to point out blacks.

If America wants an equal society, then businesses, scholarships, etc, should be awarded based on merit. Not friendships, connections, nepotisim, or bribes and the selection process should be transparent.

I don't hear complaints when whites get ahead because their fathers and grandfathers play golf together. Or when whites get into college based on donations or legacy preferences. Maybe if more lawsuites were brought up for those practices, there would be more room for better qualified whites and minorities. The Civil Rights movement was less than 50 years ago. My mother is over 50 years old. Slavery and discrimination took place over hundreds of years.

I have been in situations in Corporate America where I have given solutions to problems which were ignored and my clean cut white male colleague repeats what I say and he is a smart superstar destined to climb the corporate ladder. Does this make me less qualified or is there still bias in America?

And why is it that women still do not earn as much as men for the same work? Why do companies insist on keeping salaries a secret? If a difference in pay is based on experience or other qualifing factors, then that could be explained and understood. These are things that should be fixed if everyone claims they want to be treated as equals.

What non-black Americans have to realize is that, diveristy initiavies as shown in this article do not help just blacks but all minorities and until recently women. Also, to be disadvantage does not mean that all white Americans are racist or hate blacks. I do think that many people still have negative sterotypes of blacks admit it or not. If you are not sure ask yourself.

1. How many black friends do you have?
2. At work are you more likely to ask a white or black or other colleague for help or advice? Why?
3. How much do you know about blacks in American history? (Beside MLK, Harriet Tubman, and Rosa Parks)
4. When speaking about blacks are comments more likely to be negative than positive or neutral?
5. Would you date a black person?

As for me, I'm going to make it regardless. I was raised knowing the truth, that many times as a black woman, I have to work twice as hard to be considered as good as the average person. If you read my entire post and answer the questions truthfully, some of you will understand why.

From Kathryn,Camp Lejeune NC

I believe that most men are still stuck in the day where women are suppose to be house wives and do what there told. I do not believe that we should get special treatment but when the men of the US are still treating us with the same sight as then, then how are we suppose to step up. being in the Military and being young and female i have realized that no matter how good i am at my job or excel i am still looked at as only a female, which in their eyes deminishes my ability to be great. Come on men Grow up its the NEW AGE!!! USMC

From White Male Business owner, Midwest, USA

Wah wah wah, cry me a river…why should women-owned businesses get special treatment over businesses owned by men?! Granted I can make my spouse the 'owner' on paper just to get governement handouts rather than the winning bids on the quality of work and service my company does with a man listed as the 'owner'. It is ridiculous to think that in a time in history when there are equal rights and the push to reduce and eliminate discrimination that the government is doing nothing BUT perpetuating these issues of inequality by having 'set asides' for every category of business under the sun EXCEPT for the WHITE MALE AMERICAN who worked just as hard to start his business as a women or minority. I wish everyone would grow up and wake up to the fact that hard work and quality services should be rewarded REGARDLESS of sex, race, creed, etc. That is the ONLY way to TRULY NOT be discriminatory!

From John, Middletown OH

The way I see it is that if women want equal rights and want to be treated "just like the boys", they have no business asking for preferential treatment simply because they're a woman. All that does is make the men and women who paved their own road look down on them. I'm all about equal rights, not special rights. Move to the back of the line, please!

From John Galt

I work as an engineer for a large defense contractor. Diversity initiatives here have reached the point that only women and blacks are ever selected for executive positions. White males are fast disappearing from the ranks, and few young white male professionals bother to apply. They know the score here and don't waste their time. Meanwhile, the new execs bemoan the supposed shortage of engineers and use that "fact" to justify more diversity initiatives.

From Poughkeepsie, NY

I think the women's movement is dangerously out of control and riddled with abuse. I can no longer be recognized for my ability to do my job because it doesn't express dominance to the female community. The silly dominance factor focuses completely on manufacturing unprofessional assembly lines and sweat shops while totally destroying innovation because it creates expense. The only positions really open to women are outsourcing existing products, it pays well.

Let's be sure to include the female dominated education industry which ranks very poorly internationally, feeds on corporate funds that make children sick and is statistically anti-boy.

I can't be a part of a movement that doesn't have any introspective ability to moderate its lust for power or a vision to grow a broad social base.

From Murali, Trivandrum, Kerala

Sir,

SBA should not restrict women from doing businesses, like every men, women also deserves right to think and do the business of their choice.Actually SBA should encourage then in attempting a new business. After all in my personnel opinion reservation is not needed in business competitions.

From j, arcata, californa

supply vs demand – if a business that was owned by a woman offered a product at a price deemed reasonable by a buyer, then fantastic, we have competition. but when we have to invent a marketplace that is constructed soley upon women/minority businesses, nobody wins. quit trying to get an advantage based on WHAT you are, and focus on WHO you are and what you can OFFER. that's business. leave all this "everyone's a winner" back in first grade.

From Anonymous ____ _____

At this time, I no longer see women as being disadvantaged in industry as a whole, and a targeted approach to industries which still exhibit pervasive discrimination and entry barriers would seem more appropriate. I work in the legal profession, where more than half of the new attorneys coming out of law school are women; although there are still skewed numbers in the partner ranks, those gaps are closing. While law probably shouldn't be a targeted industry, construction, as referenced above, might be a good area–I can't recall the last time I dealt with a female-owned construction or construction-supply company,

From Elaine – Denver, CO

As a woman business owner, I'd rather see better set-asides for small business. A "small business" can be quite large according the SBA definition, and I cannot compete against a 45-person firm when I have 3 people. 8-A is a joke. You need an attorney to wade through the certification process, which costs money – which most disadvantaged companies do not have. It's still a big boys/girls game out there for anyone with a start up or small company.

From Anonymous

In many industries women are non-existant. Have you ever seen a job crew of women tackling a big project at a construction site? They are definately capable, and perhaps more cordial to deal with, compared to men, in the construction area. Money would definate give a boost to women owned construction businesses, however, nothing takes the place of earned respect and reputation.

From Steve, Salem, OR

Women and minorities will never be equal to everyone else if they continue to get a reserved seat at the banquet table.

These protestations must be embarrasing for members of those groups who've made it on their own.

From Sara, Santa Fe, NM

Yes, women will be disadvantaged as long as they are raped every 5 seconds in this USA! Obviously those first 4 comments were written by males who are afraid of women. The fact that the SBA chose female companies out of only 4 sectors points to the fact that they are still exercising the "good old boy"
system, but now on women. Not until men will give up the idea of male entitlement will there EVER BE EQUALITY.

From Anonymous

I agree that women should not get special benefits simply because of their sex. Just imagine if the situation were reversed and men got special benefits in some industries.

Furthermore, racial and ethnic minorities also should not get special treatment. Wasn't the civil rights movement designed to get equal rights for all REGARDLESS OF RACE, SEX, ETC.?

From Avinash columbus,oh

I agree. women r not disadvantaged any more. They still want the benefits though! just milking on the opportunity!!

From John McLain, New York, NY

Women are looking for a handout, a free ride. They want to be treated like a man, but don't want to pay the price that goes with being masculine in the world. It's an illegitimate, something for nothing attitude really, but that's the modern day woman for you.

From west valley ut

No they are not… They should not get special treatment just because they are a woman… Times of special treatment should be over with, if they cannot make it to bad.. I feel that women and blacks should no longer have the status. They are milking this now for to many years….