Capt. Stanley’s unlicensed, DIY shark dives
No insurance? No problem! A U.S. entrepreneur takes tourists down deep. What do you think of Stanley’s venture?
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DiggI think any time some one makes a dream come true , there is always some one crying if they can’t find a way to milk it ,or ruin it for the other person .
Karl, good for you. For every bit.
I fully agree with LD Richert’s comment
As long as people know the risk, I say do it.
Mr. Marrero reminds me of the Australian government who once mandated foreign vessels to have a huge pile of electronics on board in the interests of “safety”. LOL
Since the advent of GPS and EPRIBs, there are more idiots on the sea not less.
As for those concerned with the horse…
While I felt sad about it too, in truth, it’s no different than having a steak dinner, eating lobster, wearing a leather jacket or using glue from the local store.
As for the rude comments from Mindy, Peter and Kyle.. let me guess.. you’ve never been outside the USA and discovered how the “real” world functions ?
Karl, when I get to Roatan on my boat in the next couple years, I’ll look you up… do you prefer rum, tequila, coffee or tea ?
I joined Karl on Idabel’s 188th dive. It was an unforgettable experience that, without Karl’s tenacity and pluck, would never have been mine. Is Karl a little nuts? Sure, and God love him for it.
A fellow entrepreneur, I remember asking Karl about the cost of his insurance. He responded with (I’m paraphrasing), “What do I need insurance for? If something goes wrong down there, I’m going with you.” Point made, he battened down the hatch and down we went.
I’d hate to imagine a world without people like Karl!
I agree completely with Peter J. Brockett. What kind of person buys a horse, shoots it and throws it in the ocean. Perhaps someone should do that to Karl Stanley.
Karl Stanley, you are a bastard and a coward for taking horses out, shooting them and using them for bait. You are harldy an entrepreneur, a psychopath is more accurate. And Jeff Wise, you are despicable to be peddling this story as if it has any merit. It is the story of a sick, twisted degenerate and you glossed over that with a lot of meaningless gibberish.
It’s about time someone took full responsibility for what they do. Does every snow skier, snowboarder, or any other activity involve insurance. If I ever get to Roatan I fully intend on taking a trip on the submersible. I sense deep envy at the writer of this article. I pay for insurance for every freaking thing in this country. Then if something goes wrong the Insurance companies always come up with some excuse not to pay. I would be willing to sign any agreement with Captain Stanley to absolve him if anything goes wrong. I decide to take a risky adventure then I pay if something goes wrong.
Good on yer Captain Stanley.
As for Marrero, I suggest that you don’t ever come to Australia as the name that we have for people like you is a “Wowser” ( wow but you can’t do that. ) It’s not used with affection.
As a homebuilder of all things mechanical I looked upon Karls endeavors with envy, How fortunate that he has found a place to be able to share his sub and experences with the public. He seems to have just the right combination of intellegence, determination and “stones” to be added tothe list of some of the great tinkering thinkers of our time!.I had the good fortune to spend time working around Burt Ruttan in the early 90’s and he is the same kind of person… and we know the kind of projects Ruttan has done. I think that if Karl does a good job laying out the dangers associated with the sub, and people are willing to accept the risk… why not!. Our society has become one that we don’t have to take any responsibility for anything we do… it’s always someone elses fault!. what a load of crap. I think Karl knows the risk and as he says ” I’m down there too”, and as a explorer he is willing to take the risk for the gain. Keep diving Karl
as a person opening a commercial dive company in my parents home country of panama.i also fight does who try to destroy that spirit and free soul.he is
inspiring and a trailblazer.its a new age.which can and should be supported.
GO KARL STANLEY!!!!
I am the subject of the story and would like to request the last post be removed- the one calling for me to “rot in hell” While I am a huge supporter of free speech and even a member of the ACLU- I think this person shows a certain disconnect from reality- especially the part about canceling her am exp cards due to the story you ran. Are these 2 companies even connected? Thank you
Karl Stanley is a sick, murdering bastard and should be prosecuted for cruelty, not given a platform by FSB. I am cancelling my Am Exp card(s) and I want nothing to do with your slimy magazine. Karl Stanley can rot in hell.
Mr. Marrero
Boy Oh Boy have you goy a fire ant stuck in your sphincter of what!!! After reading your posts I came to several conclusions.
Firstly your level of ignorance about Karl’s project. In many respects Karl’s project exceeds many of the standards set by ABS or Lloyds. Regardless of that rules are for the observance of fools and a guide to the wise. With your strict observance of all things regulatory and you’re lack of any ability to think for yourself, it’s easy to see which category you fit in to.
Secondly you’re attack is motivated by envy. Just because your life own did not live up to your expectations don’t attack someone whose life did.
Thirdly, many people who quote ABS and Lloyds and denigrate others are at heart narcissistic control freaks. A certain website regarding small submersibles seems to be heading this way using ABS as a way to stifle imagination and endeavor with the added motivation of financial gain. You also accuse Karl of seeking a low regulation environment for his business. So what if he did! Just about every other US corporation has the same attitude and now manufactures in China for the same reason. Why should Karl be expected to be any different?
Fourthly what a shame it was not your last post as you promised!
Mr. Marrero
I see that there are many ways to learn about this mostly water planet, and HBOI has been adding much to that end. I know many that do there best to follow the rules that surround them, some just to get along and others because they believe it to be the best course of action. Many times to the point that they treat it like it’s a religious belief. So when one that follows the rules, which many times takes great effort, for many years, sees someone succeeding with out following all the rules they believe everyone should live by, they are usually greatly offended.
Karl has chosen a path that doesn’t require support from any government or charity to operate. To mix fun and learning is not a bad thing, and the more people that see there is much life down really deep, and how wondrous it is, the better. They will be more likely to support efforts to save those life forms, which in turn may very well be what saves humans from going to far. We need many more subs taking all sorts of people deep below the oceans surface. I expect that all the HBOI scientist that have gone down, have been greatly awed, wowed, and entertained, as part of there gathering research.
I have found many times, that the longer one sits and watches animals, the more they learn about them. Just seeing a new creature or plant, taking it’s picture and then giving it a name, is only the start of discovery. I’ve watched Karl add and update his sub equipment for some time now, and having great lights and HD cameras to record many hundreds of hours of what is happening below is very useful research. I wouldn’t be surprised if Karl plans to use the footage to make a number of documentaries in the future. One does not require a degree in some thing to add to scientific knowledge. My grandfather never got a chance to go to college, but over the years he gathered a large amount of data about butterflies and moths, that he shared with his numerous, formally educated colleagues in the research field of Lepidoptera.
To say the pioneer days of exploring the oceans is long past, is a point I strongly disagree with you on. I consider that to be very shallow thinking.
Many humans hate the wild untamed world, and work very hard to conquer and subdue it to feel safe. If I had a advanced alien type craft and I went and hovered it in one place for long, many humans would do any thing to control it. If they couldn’t control it, they would try to destroy it at any cost. The great powerful beast of this world have been facing that reality for a very very long time. But I for one love the Wild West and would likely always choose to live in it if I could. But as you well know, the Wild West is being paved over, very efficiently I might add.
I like to be safe, but one has to choose how far they will go to try to be safe. Parents struggle with that question all the time. I’ve seen so many go so over board, that there lives and there children’s become so sad and dull, that there dreams of a vibrant life, if they ever had any, are lost.
If some one were to die in a third world submarine operation that didn’t go by all the available rules put in place in other parts of the world, I would expect no real change of rules in those countries that have many rules in place. They would just say, see are rules are good, and this is an example why. Perhaps Honduras would add some laws as well. But world wide I don’t expect they would get excited enough to change there rules.
I don’t expect that the majority of Karl’s sub passengers know what is a good or bad submarine design, or how to inspect it. You could say that about many different things. People perhaps think, that since he’s been doing this a long time, that there odds of survival are pretty good, so they go for a dive to see what most will only perhaps see on the magic television. Also how many people that are knowledgeable about sub design and safety procedures, could or would be able to properly inspect Idabel completely before any given dive, or any sub for that matter. Many more people know about cars, yet they are not likely to know if a tire has a defect, or that some other odd item is about to fail at any given moment.
I don’t have a list of safety procedures, equipment, and submarine safety assemblies, such as a drop weight, etc., that Karl has. But I would be very surprised if he didn’t have any, and didn’t think about them and practice them on a regular basis.
In regards to your quote below about those who have died exploring the oceans and other waters giving there lives for increased safety of those that followed them underwater, I have to disagree.
Much was learned from the investigations of there deaths, but they didn’t willingly die for that cause.
“They have been recognized by history and recorded for future generations as the ones who gave their lives so that those who followed could work in a safer environment under the sea.”
But what do I know, I’ve been running with scissors most of my life, removed the tags from all my mattresses years ago, and don’t have a top guard over the blade of my table saw.
Karl,
While I said I would not respond anymore, I have to respond in defense of Harbor Branch.
First, the Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institute (HBOI) is NOT IN THE TOURIST SUBMARINE BUSINESS!!!!
HBOI is a NOT-FOR PROFIT organization dedicated to Science, Bio-medical and Oceanographic Research. They known and respected throughout the world, being considered one of the leading oceanographic institutes in the world. Their customers are scientists, government agencies, universities, industries, researchers, and at times they have been contracted by the film industry to film underwater documentaries.
For many decades they have been in the forefront of technology, science and research. They are the holders of dozens of patents in Subsea Engineering, & Biomedical Research. Their founders, Seward Johnson Sr. & Edwin Link started this non-profit organization along with hundreds of their employees. They are true visionaries whose dedication to science, engineering and research has increased our understanding of the oceans, and have made great contributions to the marine science, oceanography, marine botany, marine education, biomedical & cancer research and marine engineering fields.
Their main source of revenue is through grants awarded to scientists in their respective field of research. Some of these scientists may use the submersibles as part of their research; however, the submersible operation is a very small part of the institute and contributes very little to its revenue.
Due to the great job the US government has done in handling our economy for the past eight years, it is not surprising that funding for research has been almost non-existent during this time. Just like everyone else in this economy, HBOI been hit hard by the economical disaster we are all facing and as a result more than 90% of the contracts for the submersibles were cancelled. Recently, HBOI became part of Florida Atlantic University, and even though they have gone through hard times, they are in business and their submersible operation is still going in spite of our economy.
If anything, they have done an excellent job of surviving, keeping hundreds of scientists, engineers and technicians employed while many FOR PROFIT multi-billion dollar corporations and banks collapsed around them all over the country!
Harbor Branch is NOT a tourist submersible operator. They DO NOT carry tourists for hire. Therefore, you cannot compare this operation with yours as their business is science and research, and your submersible is not equipped for research operations. Their focus is not to make profit or to take tourists to wow them, but rather to provide a tool to take the scientists as safely as possible to the bottom of the ocean where they carry their research. In fact, due to the nature of their work, research submersibles are subject to less regulation than tourist submersibles as they are not regulated by the USCG to operate, they do not have to carry a certificate of inspection from the USCG and their pilots are not required to carry USCG Master licenses as it is required for tourist submersible pilots carrying passengers for hire.
The business model I was referring to is the tourist submersible business model established by Atlantis Submarines, which is the largest, most successful & most respected tourist submarine operator in the world. They have carried millions of tourists safely to explore the undersea world, including children, and handicapped alike.
The two fatalities that occurred in one of the submersibles (JSL 1)was in the 1970’s (Probably before you were born) when the TRUE UNDERSEA PIONEERS were still diving manned submersibles with very few rules and procedures, and the few rules that existed then were not enough to make the dive operation safer. The fatalities occurred due to a combination of bad judgment, engineering design flaws of the submersible, poor safety & improper diving procedures. In fact one of the fatalities was the son of Mr. Edwin Link, the designer of the submersible and the co-founder of the Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institute.
The true underwater pioneers all have been there before you and me. These people were the true pioneers of underwater exploration. They have been recognized by history and recorded for future generations as the ones who gave their lives so that those who followed could work in a safer environment under the sea. It is to them that we owe the current rules and regulations in the design, certification, safety & operational procedures established for manned submersible operations around the world.
It is because of these and other fatalities that the government intervened and decided that more rules & regulations for submersible design, classification and operations were needed, and this is the point I have been trying to make. As you and everyone else knows, we live in a litigious society, and governments are very quick to intervene and enact rules and legislation whenever there is a death in any kind of commercial venture. Lawyers are quick to sue and insurance companies use that to get their cut. If everyone tries to conduct their business like the old Wild West, business costs will invariably go up hurting them in the long term. All you need is one wild card in any industry that can screw up things for everyone else. All it takes is one death.
In the aviation industry, the first pioneers made the first plane flights, and many killed themselves testing new aircraft designs. Later the government introduced regulations; the industry matured and was made as safe as humanly possible making way for the safer airline industry of today.
Once these changes are established industry-wide, future aircraft must be built to the new design criteria, all pilots and maintenance personnel are trained to conform to the new safety rules and slowly the industry becomes safer. This is how it works in real life.
As some have mentioned here, no endeavor is safe. You can slip on the tub while taking a shower and drown. You can choke to death while eating or you can die in a car accident.
While cars are by far more deadly than submarines, they still undergo regulation and there are rules regarding their operation and licensing to the drivers from the government and in many countries insurance is mandatory. This does not stop people from dying in car accidents, but does reduce the death rates and the laws provide for accountability for each and every driver, including penalties for violating these laws.
The point still is that you have chosen to bypass most of the safety regulations and procedures in building and operating your sub and I recognize that this is your prerogative, as it is the prerogative of those who patronize you to trust their lives in your hands at 2000 ft in an amateur-built submersible built in a mom & pop shop with no oversight, no insurance, no certification, no emergency plan, & no one in Honduras who can render assistance if you are stranded in the bottom.
As someone pointed out in the discussion, your vessel is an experimental vessel, and as such is not qualified in the US & many other countries (Except some third world countries) to take passengers for hire just as the regulations are for experimental aircraft.
Just as you use this venue to get publicity, I used this venue to educate the readers about the rules and regulations established by the international classification societies for submersibles intended for carrying passengers for hire, as many of the readers don’t even know that there are rules for building and classifying submersibles intended for tourism, and that there are safety guidelines for operating tourist submarines.
In that way the readers can make a choice based on the facts, whatever that choice may be.
Is unfortunate that many consider the efforts of others to improve safety as an illusion or as an unnecessary intervention. When safety is taken in consideration costs will likely increase, but at least one can sleep at night knowing one has done all they can to prevent injury or death.
I am glad to hear that there is still room for a good DIY entrepreneur these days. Mr.Stanley, congrats on building your dream, few men have achieved as much as you.
Thats not to say all my compliments come without concerns however.
I’m wondering what safety precautions you have taken with your craft. I can assume you have a fire extinguisher on board along with other basic equipment, but what about an EPIRB device? Do you regularly inspect your craft for more than superficial damage?
I hope that you enjoy many more visits to the deep.
This shooting a horse in the head sh*t, just does not gell with me… guns and shooting horses deos not work so well with deep sea work at all,
and for the fact that he lost the horses carcass overboard, before arriving at his destination, says it was not lashed down securely, which is shoddy seamanship at and time!!
I enjoy seeing a good lively disscusion. It gives people more data to chew on so they can broaden there mind, if they wish to.
I hope to finish refitting my submarine this next summer, and start adding some more underwater adventures to my life and others.
” I’m the one that has to die, when it’s time for me to die, so let me live my life the way I want to. ~ Jimi Hendrix
“Far better it is to dare mighty things, To win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure, Than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much Nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight
That knows neither Victory nor Defeat.”
“If you don’t have a vision, then your reality will always be determined by other’s perceptions.” ~ Melanëe Addison
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” ~ Albert Einstein
“Amateurs built the Ark.
Professionals built the Titanic.”
“Those are my principles. If you don’t like them I have others.” ~Groucho Marx
It’s a shame how many are willing to put an end to this enterprise. People are FAR too willing to give up their liberties for the ILLUSION of safety. When I used to skydive (had to quit for medical reasons), I would pass no less than 9 road-side memorials on the way to the drop zone. That tells me that the DRIVE was more dangerous than the DIVE! No one has ever died at my drop zone, though injuries have occurred. It is NOT risk-free – name something that is!
People would ask me, “Why would you ever want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane?” What they fail to realize is THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECTLY GOOD AIRPLANE! Every plane, commercial, private, and the thousands of EXPERIMENTAL craft, have flaws that have the potential of bringing the plane down. Yet, people fly millions of miles each year because of the ILLUSION of safety, with FAA certification, frequent inspections, etc. And despite all those efforts, we have about 1 major crash a year, with HUNDREDS dead. And what of the TENS OF THOUSANDS killed on the road each and every year? Do we REQUIRE annual inspections of private cars? I can just imagine the OUTRAGE at “government intrusion in our private lives” if they tried! And still, despite all the dead, people do not stop flying or driving!
I would place Karl’s sub in the same category as home-built airplanes – EXPERIMENTAL. By definition, such craft are untested and have the potential for catastrophic failure, yet for most people, such craft are the only way they could EVER hope to experience the thrill of flight or submersion. That’s the RESULT of government rules, certification and bureaucracy – pricing the experience out of the means of almost all but the richest! Add to that our corrupt legal system, and any innovation is generally allowed to sit on a shelf, lest some lawyer sue because the OLDER technology wasn’t as good as the innovation! How twisted is that? Think I’m exaggerating? Find out how many small aircraft manufacturers there were 50 years ago and how many there are now!
Quite simply: if you don’t want to sail with Karl, don’t! If you don’t want to skydive, don’t! But DO NOT presume to speak for all and seek to have the experience banned for those of us COGNIZANT OF and WILLING to take the risk, whatever it may be!
I served on a US Navy nuclear sub and traveled to a depth greater than 1200 ft. Was it safe? As safe as it could be, being a HUMAN endeavor. Kindly keep in mind that we’ve lost 2 nuclear boats, designed and built to the most stringent standards possible, and still things went wrong that cost hundreds of lives. You will NEVER eliminate ALL risk, no matter the activity.
All those who wish to shut down Karl should take a trip just 50ft down with him to get a brief idea of what the other 70% of our Earth is like. They might just decide to try again, only a little deeper the next time!
Dear H Marrero,
You make the statement that there exist submersibles which offer the paying customer the opportunity to visit the depths of the ocean “IN COMPLETE SAFETY”. Sir, with all due respect, with your 17 plus years of experience, how can you make such an outlandish, misguided statement, how can you utter such a fraudulent, delusory declaration? I understand the submarines with which you’ve been affiliated have undergone certain tests and received seals of approval from various organizations, but the deep ocean is and always will be an inherently dangerous and potentially deadly realm to explore. Karl understands this, much better than you do. He discloses these risks to his would be customers, he does not hide anything from them. He has integrity, honor, and, yes, a lot of balls to do what he is doing. Are you perhaps a bit jealous of his bravery, because when one man calls another “cocky”, in my experience it is only when there is extreme jealousy at play. How bold of you to put that on display for us all to read in your post. Mr. Marrero, in my estimation, it is YOU who is the irresponsible one, not Karl. He would never inaccurately portray deep sea exploration, in ANY vessel, as being a completely safe endeavor.
My journeys to 2,000 feet in Idabel, Karl’s submersible, were the most amazing and adventurous experiences of my life. The only events that are more memorable are the times I gave birth. And guess what? People die every day doing that! My skydiving was fun, but not even close to the excitement and adventure I felt in my very soul as the beautiful machine made her descent to the dark and cold depths of the ocean. And yes, I saw sharks eating a horse suspended by ropes tethered to cement blocks. It was the same horse I witnessed being shot in the head just hours earlier. As the animal was instantly taken out of its misery, I thought of the poor animals, including dogs, rabbits, monkeys, that are tortured every day in the name of science and research. This horse was never aware of his fate: and what a spectacular fate it was! There were some happy six gill sharks off the shores of Roatan that sunny day. For those of you who only see the negative in life and who condemn those with adventure in their blood, think for a minute about this…Karl has never coerced anyone to take a ride in his sub. He has never lied to anyone and made claims that were not true in an attempt to get more passengers. As a matter of fact, it is not cheap to go down in Idabel, and yet there are hundreds of people who willingly agree to go, knowing that there is no inspection certificate, no insurance, and the builder and pilot never earned an engineering degree. Why then do people like Hugo try so hard to discredit what Karl has done? Don’t go in the sub if you are scared you might die. But maybe you should re-think taking a taxi on your way to dinner, or diving, or doing the zip line. Even crossing the street is a risk, and by no means rent a moped and take it on the roads. The poet, Rabindranath Tagore said, “There are two kinds of adventurers: those who go truly hoping to find adventure and those who go secretly hoping they won’t.” You, Hugo, are the latter, and Karl and his passengers are the former. Henry David Thoreau said, “We should come home from adventures, and perils, and discoveries every day with new experience and character”. Helen Keller said, “Life is either a great adventure or nothing”. And here’s the quote hanging in my fifth grade classroom which is also the message I teach my students to live by: “Reach for it. Push yourself as far as you can”. She died knowing that there was great risk involved. Her children had to grow up without her around, which she knew might happen. She was Christa McAuliffe and a wonderful role model for all, young and old alike. As any adventurer knows, no amount of insurance is going to save you if a sudden snow storm envelopes the mountain, or a storm at sea capsizes the boat, or an iceberg sinks the unsinkable Titanic, or your car is struck by a drunk motorist going the wrong way on the road, or your motorcycle skids out from under you on a wet pavement. Karl is offering the ordinary person a chance of a lifetime. Honor him for that. And go for a ride if you want to, but don’t if the risk is not acceptable to you. If Karl is doing something wrong, I fail to see what it is. And, by the way, he is a genius and has little patience for people who just don’t get it. He is the most honest person I’ve met, and there is nothing wrong with his personality! Mr. Marrero keeps using the word ‘safe’ over and over again. Does he ever leave his house, I wonder? Is he jealous of Karl’s success and achievements? Who knows what his true motivation is? Forget about him. Go to Roatan and decide for yourself.
“More than anything else the sensation is one of perfect peace mingled with an excitement that strains every nerve to the utmost, if you can conceive of such a combination.”— Wilbur Wright
Hugo Marrero used to work for Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbor_Branch_Oceanographic_Institution, while that institute has contributed much to marine science, it has not provided a business model that I wish to follow. It was started with money from its founder, John Seward Johnson, and then propped up for years with grant money from the national science foundation. (your tax money) Despite going from operating 3 submersibles down to just one, it still could not make it financially and had to be bought by the state university system- (again your tax dollars) to save it from real estate developers. (see the above article)
According to their own website http://www.hboi.edu/news/press_releases.html there has been little to no use of the subs for over a year. Another interesting way to contrast the two “business models” is to consider how much time is actually spent exploring underwater. The Director of their program, Tim Askew, http://www.hboi.edu/marineops/timbio.html despite starting to dive in subs the year before I was born, has fewer dives under his belt than I now do.
Another interesting thing to consider is despite all the millions spent on certification and insurance, the sub HBOI has had two fatalities. http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA006417
I stand by my model of deep sea exploration. It is sustainable without injection of tax money, and has not injured anyone. I also believe that due to my sub’s compact size the quality of the images I have captured are second to none. http://www.stanleysubmarines.com/photos
Mr. Marrero,
First off- I would like you to know that I feel that this article, and the author of the one you posted a link to in Outside, did me a disservice in trying to make me appear more reckless than I in fact am. For example what was a hair stuck around a fan and putting off a burning smell was turned into an “onboard fire.” If I was in fact as reckless as these last two articles implied, I would agree with more of what you said. Despite the way they like to portray me for to make and interesting article, every journalist to visit has decided for themselves they felt safe enough in my work to go diving with me. I think the article by Ethan Gordon http://www.stanleysubmarines.com/news/files/fathoms.pdf paints a much fairer portrait of my operation. I would also like to mention I have had former Perry engineers, a NASA safety specialist and a former Coast Guard official down in my subs.
From all of your comments- this is the one I would most like to address “The problem many of us have with your business model is that you consciously and willingly as far as risking other people’s lives (including children) for your own financial gain. “
I don’t have a business model. What I do is not about making money. It is the progression of an idea I got as a nine year old, and an ongoing curiosity to see for myself some of the most common yet least know animals we share this planet with.
I’m frankly a bit surprised that given your experience with submersibles you are not a bit more frustrated with the traditional business models that exist under which to operate them. Where have the gotten us? You said yourself- it would have cost me a “few million dollars” to build the sub of my dreams, and a few hundred thousand a year to insure it- (which if it was so safe, one wonders why the insurance is so high) Tell me again what my business model is supposed to be then, how do I pay off millions in expenses with 100’s of thousands in annual insurance bills, carrying 2 people at a time?
FYI, I have been in negotiations with the governments of numerous other countries that are quite eager and happy to have me move my operations there. Why? – None have ever even had a single submersible visit their country and they would like to know what is down there. I think that says a lot about the business model that you extol as my more attractive – more ethical option.
In a world where US soldiers are losing limbs due to the government being “unable” to afford to properly armor their Humvees, I find your outrage at me putting lives on the line by “cutting corners” to be a bit suspect.
People are always having to make hard decisions based on cost. Due to greed and ignorance, there are literally millions of people around the world actively destroying the world’s oceans, and precious few concerned in learning about what we are destroying? –
There is a lot more I would like to discuss with you- please contact me directly thru my website- thanks
WOW, H Marrero, did Kalrl urinate in your chereos or something? What a blatant response or should I say attack. There are milliones of unsafe things in this world, Sounds like you go for a drive with a bunch of pillows bungiecord around yourself, grab your insurance papers and your car inspection, tell the wife and kids to stand back, put on your helment, and let this world renowned safety expert show the world how it is done, what a laugh, hey suit yourself. I would go down in that sub naked, rip up all registration papers, paint over the regristration numbers, flip off the insurance companys,and live through it. just to pi$$ H Marrero off. because I for one am sick of the bleeding heart cry babies of this world. Hey you got a 100% fool proof plan when your driving and the 18 teen wheeler in the other lane runs over the yellow line and hits you head on at 70 miles per hour? ever notice how close you drive to oncoming traffic every day? that scares me worse.
For those who care to understand more about the safety of submersibles, I am including links to a few interesting sites…
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309042321
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/nvic/pdf/1993/n5-93.pdf
Interesting reading…
http://outside.away.com/outside/culture/200806/karl-stanley-underwater-exploration-1.html
Karl,
After reading your response, I have to respond in kind and this will be my last response.
I will be very blunt, and will say what I really think of your operation. If I offend you, please forgive me.
In many of your interviews, which you may have forgotten just as you forgot meeting me, the interviews and articles infer that you went to Honduras because it is the only place where you could operate your submarine without licenses, permits, or insurance and without being bothered by all the permits required by the US government.
You yourself have mentioned many times that you did not care about spending all that kind of money to get your submersible and the operation certified by ABS or other international certification agency.
Honduras is in fact, one of the few places with deep water close to shore where you can do whatever you want and that is your only motive to be there. I do not understand why you would not admit to this to your audience. Lets take a deep look at what you have achieved in Honduras. In a few years you managed to upset a lot of people in Roatan, and little by little the government is imposing rules on you and your business. It could possibly just be a matter of time before they catch up and implement laws to regulate businesses like yours. I am sure that if this ever happens, it will make a lot of boat operators angry at you, since most operators there don’t have the means to carry insurance, let alone have their vessels inspected.
Why didn’t you choose to go to the Bahamas instead? Many Islands in the Bahamas have up to 6000 ft deep walls with clear water and an incredible marine life within yards from shore, they are a lot closer to the US, they speak English, your income and business revenue is tax free and it has a huge tourist base.
Ah, right, you could not get a permit to operate in the Bahamas because they have laws to protect the reputation of their tourist industry from irresponsible and unscrupulous tour operators. Their laws protect the tourist industry (which is their greatest source of revenue) and provide a legal recourse for the government to take legal action against the operator in case of an accident. What a concept!
Karl, you could have easily chosen to do it right from the outset by putting together a business plan, and raise the capital investment that you needed to start your dream business the right way. With your design and determination you could have easily raised a few million dollars and you could have designed the sub of your dreams. However that is just not your style. You like to work alone, like to do things your way and don’t like to be told how to do things. You tend to cut corners and forgo safety for your own financial benefit, and this is where most of us have a problem with your business model. If you were diving for profit by yourself for yourself no one would give a hoot if your sub, you or your operation is safe as you can do with your life as you want.
The problem many of us have with your business model is that you consciously and willingly chose to ignore the value of another human life and have gone as far as risking other people’s lives (including children) for your own financial gain. I have been diving submersibles since 1991, and I would never dive in your sub as even though your sub may be well built and may quite well the vehicle itself may be safe, your operation is not safe, you are not safe and that is the bottom line.
True, some people pay millions of dollars to go to space and the people who take their money cannot guarantee their life. However these are two completely different business models. These businesses spend hundreds of millions of dollars in research development, performed hundreds of tests, and they have rules to follow. They are guided by huge engineering teams with solid and proven engineering practices, their risks are fully calculated, and they are fully insured. You have chosen to forgo all of these to save money.
Yes is true that many people die every day in car accidents, airplane crashes, diving accidents, etc., etc., etc.. However, ALL OF THESE businesses play by the same rules. Cars and airplanes are built to national and international standards, there are laws that control were and how you can drive a car, a boat and airplane, they have guidelines for inspection and repairs, they specify what training you need to get certified, and they provide a minimum safety standard which can be measured and certified. They carry the required liability, fire, accident, and business insurance. These rules are designed in part to bring their risk to a manageable level and to protect the people who are the end users of these vehicles.
You can have a million hours diving submarines, however if you consciously chose to risk the life others by diving with no rules, no surface communications, no insurance, no emergency equipment, and no contingency plans for emergencies, those hours are virtually useless. Your plan is just what your shirt says “Trust Me, I do this all the time”. I’ll give you another t-shirt slogan “HEY, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?”
Being a submarine pilot is not just about driving the submarine as you can train almost anyone to dive a sub in a few hours. A true submersible pilot has above all respect for his life and other people’s lives, never takes unnecessary risks, protects the vehicle & the environment, and because of his training with established procedures, knows how to react instinctively to just about every emergency that can occur underwater and always follows a plan. It is that training and those rules what have saved the lives of some underwater, and it is the lack of training or disregard of the rules what have caused some tragedies.
I remember reading one of your stories, where you took a parent and a child with you in the sub on one of your dives. Do you have the required emergency life support equipment in case of smoke inside the cabin? If you do, has your equipment been checked and certified annually as it should have been. Do you keep records of all the equipment calibrations? What about the records of maintenance? These are all requirements which all the reputable tourist submarine operators have to conform to. Do you know that a boat captain is legally responsible for the lives of his passengers? Do you have a USCG Captain’s license? Do you have underwater communications equipment to communicate to the surface in case you get stranded in the bottom? Moreover, when you dive, do you have a designated person on the surface maintaining contact with you on the surface or making sure that everything is ok? Do you have a contingency plan for emergencies? Do any of your local helpers know what to do if you are stranded on the bottom? These are all assets and additional costs that reputable tourist submarine operators must incur in order to operate legally in several countries, including many third world countries.
Karl, I am not against you or your pioneering spirit, and in you chasing your dreams. In fact I admire it! What bothers me is your reckless attitude and disregard for human life. Think about it, many of these submersible operators spent millions of dollars to make sure that they could operate legally under the full extent of the law. They went as far as to get their design & operating procedures certified by the USCG, Lloyds of London, The American Bureau of Shipping, Det Norske Veritas and other classification agencies. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollar every year in insurance alone.
Do you really think that if you die and take someone’s life with you in the submarine is really going to go unnoticed?? That would make headlines worldwide!! And for sure will make it even more difficult for those who have spent a lot of money and effort to run their businesses.
What good it is if you are the only one going to the deepest spot in the world with tourists if your operation is not safe and you are not safe? I would not trust my life to your hands, no matter how sound and safe the sub looks and how many thousands of hours you may have diving it.
Now, think of what could possibly happen to the small tourist industry in Roatan if a misfortunate accident brings negative press to their island. Do you think they will appreciate it?
From all my years diving submarines Karl, there is one thing I really learned well and I appreciated greatly. Submesibles are dived by teams of people who watch for each other, trust each other and respect each other as their live’s may be at times on your hands and your life will equally be at times in their hands. We all followed the established rules and procedures for diving, for maintenance, and we practice every possible emergency until you could do it with your eyes closed. All of our emergency tests must be passed with a 100% score. No exeptions! This is what kept the vehicle, the operation, the people and the passengers safe!
Just imagine that!
I was going to stay out of this but feel I need to respond to H. Marreero, whom I do not recall meeting. I did not “flee” to Honduras, I am here because of the unique geography. It is the incredible closeness of the deep water to the shore that allow me to operate without a support boat thus saving a huge operating expense and being able to offer unprecedented access to the public.
I also take umbrage at you knocking my “cockiness and cowboy style”. Show me a pioneer of anything that doesn’t have a certain attitude. I am the first and still only person to be offering trips to the public to 2000 feet. It takes a lot of moxie to do something new and until you can point to someone else doing the same thing better, I feel it inappropriate to be cutting me down. (note to would be customers- if you try to take Mr. Marrero’s advise and ” go to those places where you can visit the underwater world in complete safety by sponsoring a responsible and safe tourist submarine operator.”- Short of dropping enough money to buy a new car on chartering a research sub, you won’t find anyone else that can take you to 2000 feet!
As for your point that I am basically a dead man walking- I’ve got over 3000 hours piloting a sub in depths up to 2500 feet. I suppose when you look at the (extremely limited) numbers of hours DEEP submersibles- (not Atlantis and other shallow-diving subs) have operated and the accidents they have had- (almost all in certified vessels) I am overdue for an accident. I prefer to think that I have made it thru my most likely time of departure, and that statistically I am getting safer the more experience I gain.
As for the notion that IF I have an accident it will hurt the entire industry; I think this reveals your own fears and biases concerning the deep ocean environment. Every activity has fatalities. Just on this island we have had people die kayaking, diving, horseback riding, riding scooters, and zip-lining. None of these activities shows any signs of ceasing . We are about to get helicopter tours, and those are notorious for killing people. I mean really, who thinks it is a good idea to get that high off the ground in something that the motor quits and you’re toast? But still people do.
Why – they think the risk is worth the reward. I happen to think there are things worth seeing in the deeper water of the world’s oceans that are worth the risk to go see them. (check out the photos on http://www.stanleysubmarines.com) I also believe that much of why we don’t know more about the world’s oceans is people are inherently afraid of cold/ dark places. Space is another cold, dark area that many people would not choose to visit (and where the envelope is being pushed by the “amatures” after the professionals stagnated).
Fortunately there will always be some people willing to overcome their fears and venture into the unknown and see what’s there. If you’re not one of those people, don’t worry, our discoveries will be piped into your living room via the magic of television, but if you want to see creatures of the deep for yourself, I look forward to our trip.
Follow this link the view the trailer to A View From Below.
A View From Below follows Karl Stanley an eccentric deep sea explorer who risks everything when he dives his homemade submarine to unprecedented ocean depths in search of creatures never seen before.
http://www.rooftoppictures.com/
I have been a submersible pilot since 1991 and have worked in the tourist submersible Industry (taking passengers underwater for hire) and with deep manned submersibles in the research community. I have assisted in the building and design of a couple of submersibles, and know how hard it is for a tourist submarine to be a profitable enterprise.
I met Karl twice, have seen his first sub and while I admire his drive and determination, I believe that sooner or later his cockiness will get him and one of his passengers in a situation where he could possibly loose his life and take the life of whoever is with him aboard the sub. When this happens (as is not a matter of IF but when) the implications of this accident will reverberate in the entire tourist submersible community and may adversely affect those businesses who have invested millions of dollars to give passengers an underwater experience in complete safety.
Karl is stubborn, and only wants things done his way or no way, he has no regard of the consecuences of his actions, and is unnecessarily risking other people’s lives.
In the course of running his business he has violated every single rule that has been designed to make taking passengers underwater safely by those desiring to do so, and of course he had to flee to a place where there are no rules so that his cowboy style operation can run.
If you want to risk your life with someone who has no regard for your life, by all means go ahead and sponsor him. To all others, I recommend to go to those places where you can visit the underwater world in complete safety by sponsoring a responsible and safe toursit submarine operator.
If you want an idea of what it was like on the sub, check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUFkv-AupI or search you tube for six gill shark. All of the animals (and reptiles) that Karl has fed to the sharks were either dead or in the case of the horse, walking dead. If you’ve ever been to a Central American country, and seen farmers horses. You’d know that a healthy animal would never be wasted.
So…people who eat meat are morally wrong and should be arrested? (which, btw, Karl does not eat meat) Maybe you should think before you make comments about somebody you’ve never met, know nothing about and have never had the priviledge of being a part of one of the most amazing experiences of a lifetime.
I have personally known Karl for over 10 yrs and I can tell you that he is an amazing person with a complex mind and is good to the core. You can’t say that about many people in this messed up world! I have also been down in both of his subs and have sent my children and friends down and never felt my/their life was in danger in any way shape or form.
I went on the sub with Karl, who is a trusted friend of mine. I did some of the early filming of encounters with six gill sharks.
It takes a lot of trust to go into the underwater world, with scuba or with Karl, but 10 minutes with Karl and you will be convinced!
The sub is sound, fun even, and Karl’s knows it like no man could know another machine.
In our (USA) legal morass, we have created the situation where you can’t do something unless a college or university says you can (Certification) but I can tell you from working with a very large university that the certification system is a farce. They will grab someone and put them in charge of a certification when the person is not the expert in the task. Capt Stanley has become a self-made expert. He tells his clients that he is self-made. He shares their risks. The certification “Experts” hate him and will eventually destroy him not because he is an expert but because refused to pay to get their endorsement. If these “Experts” really cared about submarine safety, they would have been down there debriefing him after every dive. Keep it up Capt Stanley! David Geaslin http://www.geaslin.com
Karl is a modern day adventurer, Too bad this world has so many idiots in it, complaining about sending some one to jail for killing a old horse for food for fish (recycling) would there have been any advantages to burying the horse instead of feeding it to the marine life? I do not think so. That sob that thinks he should be jailed should maybe go to jail also if they have ever ate steak or any other meat. All animals that wind up on your dinner plate were killed and long before they grew old and sick. I personaly am sick of whiners that get reconigition for their pathetic views, without considering the big picture.
One guy said he has been in the sub buisness for 37 years, seems arrogant, like only he has the know how to run and build a submarine. Karl is still alive after thousand dives, that should speak for itself. probably has more than 5 thousand hours under water and some twerp sounding pencil pusher critizes his work. what a lugh. had the wright brothers had to go through so much bull$hit We possibly may not still have airplanes. 7/10 of the world is covered by water and only a 1 to 5 % of the ocean depths have been explored. 12 people have been on the moon and only 2 people have been to the bottom of the ocean. What karl is doing is deep sea exploration, why the author neglected to wright about this part of the submarines abilities is a mystery to me. check out other sources like youtube and go for a virtule ride and decide for yourself. sorry but I think the authors writing abilities failed to correctly portray the true adventure and mystery of the once in a lifetime chance for the public to experience a true deep sea adventure. the author seemed more interested in dead horses and insurance, kind of pathetic I think. what has our society become? you have my permission to publish this comment.
My biggest fear is that this article will draw unwanted attention and kill his business inadvertently. Wish I could go on a dive with him!!
Sounds like it could be fun, but only if the guy has a personality to go with it. Being couped up in a tiny vessel with 3, or 4, people for a few hours could be more of a problem than anything mechanical. I like the guy’s drive to run an independent business catering to a very niche customer, pairing his passion with the customer’s fancy for a mutually rewarding transaction.
Wow, what an over reaction on the part of many here. Lets take this point by point!
Firstly, the shooting of the Horse which everyone got hung up on, as much as I don’t like killing anything, its only supermarket packaging protecting the delicate sensibilities of most people here who pay someone else at the checkout to do the killing for them.
Secondly, this sub is engineered in an unconventional but sound manner and has completed hundreds of successful dives. Many parties who make adverse comments about Karl and quote Lloyds and ABS have a vested interest and use those standards as a form of industry protectionism. I don’t remember the Wright Brothers having a pilots licence.
Thirdly, criticising Karl for moving to a low regulation environment is hardly fair when you consider how many corporations have moved to the third world for the same reason and you still buy their products don’t you. I would note their stocks went up as a result.
Fourthly, anyone as focused and single minded as Karl often has a personality that is far from main stream. So What! As for the guy who complains about being hurried off the dock, maybe you’re an unpleasant personality and he had good reason.
Its simple, if you want to go diving with Karl go for it but at your own risk. If you don’t like those terms don’t! In a world where every mountain has been climbed and all the continents explored, Karl is one of only a handful of true adventures we have left and personally I feel the world would be a better place if it contained more like him!
I ,too, dreamed of building a submarine as a child. I love the fact that he actually did it and has been bobbing up and down for so many years. If indeed something does go wrong, the passengers have as much culpability as he does in whatever happens to them, as long as he doesn’t mislead them about the risks (who ever believes all risk can be removed, they don’t need a sub-ride, they need a reality check). No amount of insurance can remove the risk or bring a person up from the depths.
I think it takes a lot of guts to follow thru with a childhood dream… way to go Karl! Aside from not having an engineering degree this under educated (yah right) gentleman has done far more than most highly educated engineers I have known. Not only did he design a wonderful machine …he built it with his own hard earned money. How many people do you know who have done this? I am totally amazed at both the machine and the man as both have performed outstandingly. I wish Karl all the best and if I ever get to Honduras I will definitely go diving with Karl!
In 37 years of exploring the world’s oceans, I have learned the following:
Seawater and electronics: never a happy ending.
It’s inevitable that there will be a catastrophe with this vehicle. Having had several small fires is an indication of the design flaws in the electrical system. There are good reasons that these types of vehicles are regulated and licensed.
Farmers shoot cows in the head and then slit their throats to drain the blood. Ever eat a hamburger? You’re a hypocrit. I admire anyone who gets away from any country imposing strict regulations on everyone just to please idiots.
I found the tone of this article absolutely despicable, as well as ill-informed. Idabel is a soundly designed and beautifully built vessel. She has, for example, a hull that was stress relieved as a completed unit — a precaution that goes beyond certification agency requirements and common submarine building practices. Yet to the author, it seems ten years and thousands of dives safely executed are just an accident waiting to happen. You think the “professionals” don’t have any mishaps in a thousand dives? Talk to some of them, they have plenty of hair raising stories too. But those stories, whether they ocurred to Karl or to anyone else, can only be retold because of backup systems and safe operating procedures. I hope readers have the gumption to recognize that thousands of safe dives say much more than one very small-minded journalist.
feeding sharks is a good karma. while shooting a living animal ( horse ) is bad. You decide. but submarine itself is a cool thingy !!!
Oh, I see Walter. You must be one of the visitors who loved watching a dog get tied to a wall without food, water, or companionship, and slowly starve to death under the name of “Art.” That was an unregulated third-world county too!
For all of those posters who are on here p1ssing and moaning about how indignant they are about his moral or ethical depravity, for whatever self-rightous reason, here’s a thought: don’t go to Honduras. You like the fascist little over-regulated worlds you live in, great! Stay there!
Good luck Karl! We are all going to die and you are one of the lucky few who are having some fun along the way.
If I am ever in Honduras, I will surely come for a ride
Live your dream Stanley,the rest of the world is sitting at their desk with their butt getting bigger and their heart getting weaker.Their dreams are dead,they watch dancing with the stars for fun.
Sounds like fun. Always wanted to see a shark eat a horse!
I LOVE THIS GUY! Despite critics, overzealous regulators and all those who think we need a license and insurance to do something as simple as walk the dog, Karl Stanley soldiers on! Pretty notable for someone without any formal engineering training, don’t you think ?
All of the astounding issues this story raises (good & bad), and the only comment is about a dead horse???
Cap’t Stanley is a genius. Insane, yes, but still a genius.
Yeah. The shooting the horse in the head thing was kinda disturbing.
If he was arrested for shooting a horse that he owned, you would have to arrest every farmer in the world.
Shooting an animal in the head is not cruel or inhumane and is even used by vets in the United States when a horse breaks a leg at a horse race since it is the quickest and most humane thing to do.
Heck, it is still legal for a military comander to shoot a soldier in the head for disobeying a direct order in the time of war.
While you might not like the idea or killing, we in the real world know that it is just a part of the cycle of life.
Now if he had dumped it overboard to the sharks without shooting it first I would have had an issue with him.
wow aren’t we judgementive. Considering Canada still butchers horses for human consumption..Good for him to live his dream.
I went on this submarine a couple years ago when I was in Honduras. The article is not joking- it’s a spartan operation, and “Stanley” could really care less about the passengers- we were ballast for the submarine and were shoo’d off the dock right after the money (cash only) traded hands. The submarine itself looked to be well made, and the man is probably a good engineer. However, his indignation toward the laws and animals is overwhelming.
I so agree with Mr. Jones, furthermore there is no telling what kind of damage is this guy inflicting on the very fragil environment. I do hope some environmental group, with big teeth, get a hold of this story. This guy needs to be stop, what an idiot. It just goes to show you that people would do anything for a buck, shame on him and on the author of the story for glamorizing such cruel, childish, irresponsible, behaviours!
He is great. Following thru on a dream .The writer summed it up well .He also spared one neglected horse pain and sufferring and gave Gods other creatures a meal. A REAL naturalist.
Quit your complaining D.
You are obviously one of those people who hears or reads something and only takes in the negative.
He uses OLD TIRED horses.
My parents own horses as a child so I can confidently say that they are such large animals that dieing a natural death for them is awful. My dad used to shoot them when they got old and run down because all the suffering they go through, to let them do that is cruel.
Smart he may be, but selfish…oh most definitely!
He needs to grow up!
Its an old horse. They typically shot them anyway.
I am morally repulsed that someone would kill a live animal, and add to its undignified end by dumping it into the ocean to use as “treasure” for someone else to find. Shame on this man. He’s not to be lauded. He’s to be arrested for animal cruely, among other things. Please do not showcase this kind of person again.
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I lived two doors down from Carl in college while he was building the C-BUG and his passion has not changed. His ability to creatively finance his Submariner operations is incredible and people should try dwelling on the positives for a change and not what could go wrong. If you want what you do not have you must do what you have not done. Carl is doing just that. He is a true explorer and without people like him, the great United States wouldn’t be what it is today and man would have never left the atmosphere of this great planet. Kudos Carl!!! Have a Vegimite sandwich for me :)